SINGAPORE: Popular is a household name. From its origins in 1924 as a distributor of Chinese books, the bookstore now boasts 200 outlets in 7 countries with more than 4,000 staff.
For CEO Chou Cheng Ngok, the name of the game in ensuring Popular’s survival and continued success has been diversification. Beyond its mainstay of books, more than half its profits now come from selling stationery, gadgets and even tidbits. In an environment where bookstores have struggled to stay afloat, Mr Chou’s strategy to keep books in the mix is yet more diversity, with the Popular brand now linked to e-learning portals and the educational publishing industry.
Even as he has diversified, Mr Chou also tried to stay true to the legacy left by his father. In leading the company since the 1980s, he has faced his fair share of failures, from the acquisition of the Borders brand in 2013 to losses in the property sector that made him delist Popular Holdings.
As he looks to the future, Mr Chou firmly believes that brick-and-mortar businesses can ultimately survive and thrive. He went “On the Record” with Bharati Jagdish about this, why he never really wanted to be a businessman and why despite being a bookseller he is no bookworm.
Chou Cheng Ngok: I think my reply could be very contradictory and very ironic. You are right. I am a bookseller. So, what is my first mission? It’s to sell books. If I don’t sell books, I don’t survive. Now, if I spend so much time reading books, do I have time to sell books? So I always tell people jokingly: “Come on, you are looking at a bookseller, not a librarian.”
A bookseller’s first objective is to sell as many books as possible, not to read as many books as he possibly can. I think that is my guiding line. Also, the number of titles published today is large. Can you keep track of it? You can’t. In a way, you have to be selective. But I do read book reviews so that I can decide what to carry in the store.
DIVERSIFY TO SURVIVE
Bharati Jagdish: Popular has only survived, based on your annual reports over the years, because more than 50 per cent of your revenue actually comes from selling things other than books – stationery, assessment books and even snacks. So, wouldn’t this indicate that the business of selling books per se is not going to be lucrative? It hasn’t been for a long time.
Chou: Absolutely right. The selling of books is not lucrative and if I absolutely rely on bookselling, Popular will not be where it is today. You have got to look at human beings. I am 80 years old. I recall when I was 30, things were very different. The whole world changes and it changes a lot. Right now, how many people are serious readers? They are not. Why? Is it because they don’t love books? No. It’s because there are so many things to distract them.
In the good old days when you only had newspapers, what can you do? You could only read newspapers. Later on, with the introduction of radio, people had a choice. They could either read or listen. Next, they had the television. So things gradually move. But there’s no end to any business. The end to any business is the end you put to it and this is a very good example. When radio came on, I think a lot of people said that would be the end of newspapers. Why read newspapers when people can read it to you? No, it’s different.
Similarly when television began, people said that will be the end of radio. Right now, we have a very happy co-existence. Newspaper, radio, television. Although I think people watch TV more now or they’re online more. They listen to radio less, they read newspapers less. But my last word is: Everybody has learnt that variety is the spice of life.
BOOKSHOPS WILL NEVER DIE
Bharati: But people are increasingly reading online, going to libraries. We’ve seen many bookstores close in Singapore. Brick-and-mortar retailers in general are suffering because people are increasingly shopping online. Your company is surviving well but figures show it’s not growing greatly. Some might say that the decline of brick-and-mortar businesses, including yours and pure bookstores, is inevitable.
Chou: Yeah, people are shopping more online. But can you tell me, or are you confident that in time to come, physical shopping will be lost? No, it will be there forever. Otherwise, what would happen to the malls? So don’t worry.
Bharati: Why are you convinced that they will be there forever?
Chou: Variety is the spice of life. You’ve got to have more than one choice. You shop online? Great. You shop in the physical shop? Great. I have never said that the bookstore industry is a sunset industry. I’ve always said that as long as I’m alive, the book industry will be alive.
Bharati: But you’re only alive because you started selling other things. So, going back to that original point, if one is purely a bookseller, it’s probably not going to work. People might also be doing more of their reading online. So how can you say books are not a sunset industry?
Chou: People will still want physical books, but you have to make them want it and if they want it in smaller numbers, we will do other things to keep them coming to bookstores and keep such businesses going. Diversify. What I say is that bookselling is also a retail business. So in a retail business, do you impose on people what they should buy or do you try to learn what they want to buy? For the people of today, if you only have strictly a bookshop, why would they want to come into the bookshop?
When I took over Popular in the 80s, I already told myself that if it were to go on, Popular has to make itself a one-stop shop. What that means is that I’ve got to look into people’s lives and see what they need. So I asked myself: A person who goes to school, a person who is literate, what else does he need? He needs stationery. That is the immediate connection. Therefore, we expanded into stationery. Books are non-perishable, non-consumable. Stationery is perishable and consumable. And that is how you continue to generate sales. We’ve also expanded more into multimedia and we want to make it very specialised.
Bharati: You took over Borders for a bit and it didn’t work out.
Chou: You know why? Because there was too much concentration on books.
Bharati: Why didn’t you try to diversify there as well?
Chou: In fact, this is a very challenging question. I told myself: I bought the Borders name, why? I don’t need it. Popular is good enough. But, I think Borders has all the time been associated with book reading. Now, if I diversify Borders into something like Popular, why bother to buy Borders?
Bharati: Why did you do it then?
Chou: I did it because maybe I was idealistic. I was thinking it was something worth exploring. One day, if I can build a bookshop, 40, 50, 60,000 sq ft of nothing but books. Wouldn’t that be wonderful? Yes, it would be wonderful. People will come and visit your bookshop, but as we learnt it doesn’t happen that way.
Bharati: While you don’t read much yourself, you do promote reading. Do you think people are reading less or simply reading online and borrowing from libraries?
Chou: I don’t know if they are reading, but what I can say for sure is that there are too many distractions today.
Bharati: So do you regret being idealistic in acquiring the Borders brand?
Chou: No, this is another irony. You cannot be 100 per cent practical and happy. You have, to a certain extent, to be idealistic. Being idealistic will make you happy. Being idealistic is being a dreamer. Wouldn’t you like to be a dreamer? So I shouldn’t stop myself from being idealistic but somehow, I should balance the two. Because I know I’m living in the real world and am running a business.
OVERWHELMING SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY
Bharati: And sometimes things don’t work out.
Chou: Yes and I have to also think because I’ve got 200 bookshops. I’ve got more than 4,000 staff. I cover seven countries. What if I collapse? I’m okay. I might have enough wealth, but if I collapse, 4,000 people will be out of jobs. Then what?
Bharati: Is that what keeps you going?
Chou: Yes, exactly. That is one thing that keeps me going.
Bharati: Why do you feel the obligation though? People will find their way.
Chou: People think differently. I look at it this way: I have an opening and you’ve voluntarily applied and I’ve voluntarily taken you in. But, in the back of your mind, why did you apply? You applied because unconsciously you trusted me, you trusted the company. You wouldn’t apply to a company if you knew very well that in three years it will close shop. So, this has become my obligation.
They apply maybe because of the salary, the package, the work, or the interest. But ultimately, they applied because they trusted me to go on. They don’t want to see me close in three years. That is the responsibility. People trust you.
Bharati: If the aim is to keep the business going, I wonder why you even sell books if it’s not lucrative to do so. You could sell all the other stuff that Popular already sells and the Popular name will still carry on.
Chou: Another thing that keeps me going is my father’s aspiration. My father started as a Chinese bookseller. So he has always told me: “Look, I’ve spent all my life in books. I’ve built up a book business. All your education is paid for by the selling of books.”
Bharati: We’ll talk more about how you promote reading in a moment, but in what ways has your father influenced you?
Chou: Consciously, he has not influenced me at all because I was always against my father. If he told me that it’s black, I would tell him it’s white. So, consciously, my father has not influenced me one iota. But when I look back I realise that unconsciously, he has influenced me a lot with his wisdom. At that time, I thought it was nonsense. Now, I think it’s a gem. I’ll tell you one. The first day I joined my father, my first question was: “Dad, I’m joining you in business. How do I make money?” Fair enough. He looked at me and said: “Making money? Very simple. You help other people to make money.”
At that age and at that time, if I could have I would have sworn at my father. I’m asking you how to make money. Now you tell me, you help other people to make money. But as time went on, it started to make a lot of sense. You see, if I do well, I help you to make money, and in time to come, when you have an opportunity, you will think about me and you will help me to make money. You don’t close the door and make money. You deal with people. You deal with issues. That’s how you make money. It’s one of the most important lessons because I think that he has the kind of wisdom that you cannot find in books. Very simple.
A PROFESSIONAL LOAFER
Bharati: What made you want to take over the business from your dad?
Chou: Honestly, I never wanted to take over the business. You know what my life aspiration is? I aspired to be a professional playboy, or a professional student. I want to study from university to university. I want to take courses I’m interested in. I’m not concerned with degrees. I want to be a professional student.
Bharati: You’re concerned with learning, not degrees?
Chou: Not really, I want to occupy myself. So, professional playboy is fun. Being a professional student is fun. And the last one, I want to be a professional loafer. I know myself. I’ve never wanted to be a businessman.
Bharati: It sounds like you were unmotivated?
Chou: Totally unmotivated.
Bharati: Why were you so unmotivated and not want to go into business?
Chou: Because I’m a lazy son of a gun. As simple as that. And I can tell you why it’s as simple as that. Human beings have two very big weaknesses. One is greed and the other is laziness. I have both. A lot of people will be very idealistic – they’ll say I want to do what I like. I want to do what I’m interested in. But they have not thought about one thing: You also have to do what you need.
Actually, I’m doing what I need. I’ve got to overcome these two weaknesses. I’ve got to do it. If I don’t do it, will there be a Popular today? It’s my commitment to my job. When you are committed to your job, you don’t particularly have to love your job. It’s a sense of responsibility. That’s it.
Bharati: So do you love your job at all?
Chou: I love and I hate my job. People say I love my job because I work six days a week. I don’t go home until close to 9pm every day. So therefore, I must love my job. But, do I really love it? It’s the need to do the job. Maybe it’s the Chinese culture, Chinese tradition. You have to carry on what your forefathers started.
Bharati: What would you have done instead?
Chou: All my life, even until now, I seriously just want to be a professional loafer. The business was what was offered to me and I looked at it as the right thing to do. That’s what leads me on. People say I love the book trade, but nah.
Bharati: But you’ve been in this trade for so many years, what don’t you like about it?
Chou: You come and be a book seller, and after three years, you tell me if you like it or not. It’s bloody hard work. It’s a lot of detail.
Bharati: But you’re successful at it.
Chou: Yeah.
Bharati: Is there anything you like about your job?
Chou: Money, money, money.
Bharati: Is that really the only thing that motivates you?
Chou: But there really isn’t much money in book selling, which is why I’ve moved into property development.
Bharati: You did face some failures in that regard, so much so that you had to delist your company.
Chou: Property isn’t always lucrative in terms of dollars and cents but it’s a bigger value, a bigger amount. If I identify one project correctly, I could make millions. If I identify a book, you think I can make millions? No.
Bharati: How did you process your failure in property though?
Chou: Well, you know I delisted my company. More and more companies are delisting. Because the restraints and demands put on listed companies are very heavy. It doesn’t give me the freedom. As a businessman, I want to feel like an entrepreneur. I follow my thinking. I improvise. I innovate.
Bharati: I understand your property business is doing fine now.
Chou: That’s why I tell you openly, given the choice between the property business and the book business, I would gladly embrace the property business.
Bharati: So are you moving out of books?
Chou: No I’m not. I’m going to stay forever with books. I’m going to grow the book business. I’m stupid. I’m an idealist.
Bharati: You said earlier it’s about the money, but clearly it’s about more than money.
Chou: Maybe it’s family history. Maybe it’s influence by my father. Maybe it’s the noble idea of education, culture and reading. I don’t know. One day when I grow really old and look back, I want to say: “Yeah. This is a business that is worth struggling for.” Because you don’t make much money, but on the other hand – your contribution although you cannot measure it physically – is very pervasive.
ENCOURAGING READING AS A HABIT
Bharati: What do you see your contribution as?
Chou: Encouraging reading so that people will become more knowledgeable, people will hopefully become better people, more tolerant, everything.
Bharati: To what extent would you say the decline of the book business is a reflection of the decline of reading? Or do you think it is just that people are using a different medium to read?
Chou: Whether people are reading less or not, I’ll leave it to the research people. But I come back to the same old thing: There are just so many choices, so many distractions.
Bharati: You once wrote that if bookshops die out, families and governments will also be responsible because reading has to be nurtured by these entities.
Chou: Reading is a habit. We are supporting reading 100 per cent. Reading has to be nurtured because reading is like any habit. You have to be introduced to it. You have to be guided and be encouraged. I support the Western culture, bedtime reading. You will excite them and in time to come, without you telling them, they will grab a book. So, reading has to be nurtured.
Bharati: How confident are you that it can be successfully nurtured in Singapore?
Chou: I believe one thing about the Singapore Government: It is very genuine about nurturing reading. I think Singapore libraries are one of the most focused libraries. In most countries, they’ll open a library and you come and borrow books. The National Library Board goes beyond that.
I’ll give you one example. Chou Sing Chu Foundation, which I started in recognition of my father, is starting to publish children’s books but we only publish in Chinese. Initially, when we put our first set of children’s books on the market, we couldn’t sell. Our initial print run was 1,000 copies. We couldn’t even sell 100 copies. Then we came up with a new idea. We thought rather than force people to buy or advertise them, why don’t we get people involved. So we started storytelling. We talked to the NLB and they were very supportive. They loaned us the space to stage storytelling. With this, we have even gone further. We need people to tell stories. We need committed people. We cannot afford to employ professional storytellers. So now, we have started recruiting storytellers from among housewives. We put them through a very simple course provided by the schools. They develop their storytelling technique. We put them through a very simple course. We give them a certificate and whenever we need a storyteller, we call them and they very enthusiastically respond.
HIGH RENTALS A “TERRIFIC THREAT”
Bharati: You have said before that you wouldn’t blame the Internet if bookshops go out of business. You would actually blame landlords because rentals are so high.
Chou: Yes. Today in Singapore, how many malls are there and how many new malls are coming up? There are more and more new malls. The traffic to a mall will naturally decline because there are more businesses now depending on traffic. But the landlords don’t decrease the rental. They increase the rental instead. Isn’t that a terrific threat to us? They are losing tenants but they are also getting more tenants. After a few months, empty spaces get filled.
There’s a very unique characteristic about Chinese. My father used to say they always want to be their own boss. They always want to own a business. So now you see in Singapore, lots of young people want to go into business. It’s flourishing. So because of this, the mall-owners are not short of tenants.
Bharati: What do you think can be done about high rentals?
Chou: You’ve got to be more imaginative. You’ve got to improvise. You’ve got to go with the flow. And this is why, in Popular, we are not only selling books.
Bharati: To what extent do you think something needs to be done to moderate rentals? Some people even suggest the Government should step in. Or, do you stand by what you said earlier – retailers need to adapt.
Chou: No, you’ll be going against capitalistic thinking if anyone were to step in.
Bharati: So, no controls?
Chou: Let the market forces decide. It’s a matter of supply and demand. That’s the modern economy. We have had to adapt. We are selling stationery. From stationery, we are expanding into another brand called UrbanWrite – fancy stationery. We’ve even expanded into tidbits.
Bharati: How do you decide what you want to carry and whether or not you’re staying true to the brand and the spirit of it?
Chou: There are two things that guide me. One is that although I call Popular a one-stop shop, I do not want to make it into a department store. I do not want to make it into a Daiso. I do not want to make it into a supermarket. I still want to connect Popular’s merchandise to what I call “food for the mind”. Writing instruments are, in a way, “food for the mind”. So, I’m using these kinds of things to guide me. That’s why I will expand into all these things, but I will not expand into clothing. I will not expand into furniture.
Bharati: What about snacks?
Chou: In a way it’s true. When people start reading, they would like to snack. So I’m helping to prolong their interest in reading. I know it’s sounds very cheeky but I mean it. I always mean what I say and do what I mean. If I don’t mean it, I don’t do it.
Bharati: What are the main things you think retailers are doing wrong at this time, so much so that we are seeing many of them close?
Chou: I don’t think retailers are doing wrong. Maybe they are not doing enough. The world is changing too fast. They don’t catch up. My strategy is to always be ahead.
Bharati: How do you do this? What’s your process like?
Chou: By doing things people have never done before or never thought about before, or even if they have thought about it, they don’t dare do it. I’ll give you one example. How can I expect or encourage people to come to bookshops? I can’t. It’s easier to encourage them to go to fashion stores, to go to eateries. Can I put a full-page ad in the paper every day? I can’t. So I have got to make sure that whoever comes to Popular, whether they have the intention to buy or to browse, walks away and says that it’s a unique experience.
If they come to Popular and somehow they walk out and say: “Eh, I never expected a bookshop to be like that. I never expected this and that.” Then, there’s a chance for them to come back. Brick-and-mortar businesses have to ensure that they can provide a unique experience for people to want to visit.
The other thing I did was start the Popular BookFest. Initially, when I started the BookFest, all my staff were against it because it’s a lot of hard work. A lot of money had to be put in. In the first five years, I was very ambitious. I had a BookFest in Singapore and I started a BookFest in Malaysia. All lost money in the first few years.
Bharati: Why did you continue doing it?
Chou: I told myself that even if I stand on Bukit Timah Hill, use a loudhailer and say: “Come one, come all, come to Popular!” – nobody will give a damn. Bookshops are not looked upon as the most attractive places to go. Bookshops are not an absolutely necessary place to go. So, I thought, well, people go to fairs and festivals, right? They love fests. So I tried to create the BookFest as a fair. We have checked and noticed that lots of people who have never visited a bookshop nor a Popular bookshop, will come to the BookFest because there are a lot of bargains. And this raises awareness of our brand and they subsequently visit the shop. So I had to be patient in order to see the results. We had to think long term. The BookFest is a bookshop that goes to the people. We’d rather do that than wait for people to come to us.
WORKING WITH FAMILY, AND FAILING
Bharati: You mentioned last year in an interview with another media organisation that you have no plans to retire. Today, would you say the same thing?
Chou: I don’t have any plans to retire. Again, everything must have a reason. I’ve seen a lot of my friends when they retire, within 3-5 years, you can see how much they have physically deteriorated. I don’t want to be that.
Bharati: You have no family members working for you now, but at some point, your son was working for you and it didn’t end well.
Chou: There were two occasions and yes, it didn’t end well both times. Because we are different human beings. We are living in different times.
Bharati: It was reported that he had disagreements with some of the older staff in the organisation. To what extent was that really the case or was it more than that?
Chou: That was actually rubbish. That was something very cruel done by one of my staff. He’s dead now, so I don’t want to mention his name. He had a total disagreement with my son when my son joined and somehow he didn’t like my son, so he created this story. There was no such thing. If it was any one thing, it was an incident that this man didn’t even know about. Years ago, I was a hot-tempered person. My son and I were talking in the room behind closed doors and we had a disagreement. I guess, unconsciously, I was yelling and screaming. And as always, at the end of yelling and screaming, I banged the table. And when I banged the table, my son, who doesn’t know any better, banged the table too. And he said: “I quit.” And that was that. That’s the real story. It was as simple as that.
Bharati: What did you disagree on?
Chou: This is what I gather, but it may not be true. My background, my education is totally different from his. I call myself an entrepreneur. He calls himself a professional. He is a qualified accountant. He has been very successful. He worked for the big international companies. He even worked for Rupert Murdoch, Li Ka-shing. So, he prided himself on being a professional. He thinks the way I run a business is very unprofessional. So he wanted to influence me. I refused to be influenced.
Bharati: To what extent do you feel there may have been some truth to how he felt, that the way you do business is indeed unprofessional?
Chou: I’m very unprofessional.
Bharati: Give me an example of one issue that illustrates this and that caused you and your son to disagree.
Chou: As entrepreneurs, you rely on your experience and instinct. You don’t do research. You don’t back up with figures and all these things. I’m like that, but he does it in the professional way. So the style, everything is different.
Bharati: But it’s worked for you, wouldn’t you say?
Chou: It works for me, but he thinks that it doesn’t work for him.
Bharati: Do you think he sees value in the way you do things?
Chou: I think gradually, as time goes on he will see not only the difference but the value of the two differences.
Bharati: Do you see the value of that?
Chou: Yes, I think if he can integrate the two differences, he will be more successful than me.
NO REGRETS
Bharati: Do you regret that he left?
Chou: No, no, no. I don’t regret because the one good thing about me is that I don’t hold grudges.
Bharati: You still get along as father and son.
Chou: Yes. I told him to go out on his own. I will do my own business. It’s okay. It doesn’t bother me. After trying twice, I don’t want to persuade him to join and I don’t think I should persuade him to join.
Bharati: Why did you want him to join so badly?
Chou: Well, it was so-called stupid fixed ideas. Fixed values that I took over from my father so my son should take over from me. But later I realised that if not, so what? Currently, we have a plenary third-generation management team. The Board of Directors consists of professionals with a substantial amount of experience and expertise. They have worked closely with the management team for a long time now, and their guidance and participation in the business have served us well. As our business operates in different regions, it is of great importance to ensure that each region has its own management and operation team with a clear and systematic work process. With our current team, we believe that the Popular spirit will continue to bring the company to greater heights.
Bharati: What are your biggest regrets so far?
Chou: No regrets, none at all.
Bharati: Why not?
Chou: Maybe it’s my silly thinking again. In my life, I want to work hard. I want to play hard. I want to die hard. “Die hard” meaning today you see me, tomorrow you don’t. If I work hard and play hard, should there be any regrets? I don’t have any regrets and very frankly, regrets are very painful. I don’t want that. When the day comes for me to close my eyes, I want to ask myself if I have any regrets and I hope my honest answer will be: “No regrets. Bye, bye.”
The moral of the story is: Whatever you go into, make sure you can survive through thick and thin. In life, it’s a matter of survival. Everything goes in cycles. If you manage to survive this, there will be a new spring.
